25 Comments to “The Basics: Does God Choose to Save Certain People?”

  1. WGJake

    Dec 8th, 2009

    Very good stuff.

  2. Nathaniel Watts

    Dec 15th, 2009

    Interesting, and though I am still preparing to answer your response to my questions on a previous post – this one has brought up more questions:

    If God has predestined all of us whom are Christians to be saved, then what is the purpose of missions?

    What is the purpose of going out and sharing the Gospel – if those people are already predestined to hell or heaven [because certainly then, our efforts would not be necessary]. Yet, in Romans 10:14, it clearly says:

    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

    15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

    I myself have gone to multiple countries in order to share and proclaim the love of Jesus Christ and His glorious Gospel — but if those people will be saved or go to hell regardless of my efforts… then why count the cost?

    I mean, clearly – God is God, and uses those whom are ready and willing to be used… but “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few…” [Luke 10:2] — why work for a harvest, if the harvest will be worked regardless?

    YES YES, we should strive to do it because of our love for our Savior – not for the sake of works, but for the sake of our love for Him… but if it will be done without me spending my time and efforts and finances, if those souls are saved or lost regardless if someone is sent to them — then why go in the first place?

    Why pray for the lost and the broken-hearted if the result is already chosen?

    I do not pose these questions to refute you, no – I do it to encourage conversation. I enjoy asking questions and gaining perspective, and perhaps – by the grace of God – both parties may grow in faith and understanding of our Great and Glorious Creator and Savior.

    Again, thanks for your encouragement on Twitter, and here. God is taking me through a season of really delving into the deeps of His Word, and so I get excited in talking about such things.

  3. Les

    Dec 15th, 2009

    Well, simply put, because God doesn’t save people without us preaching the gospel.

    “faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. -Romans 10:17

    This is the means God uses to save people. Could He just randomly turn the lights on in His elect, sure. But He has deemed that He will use His people to preach and open the eyes of His people.

    Does that make sense?

  4. Nathaniel Watts

    Dec 15th, 2009

    Yes indeed it does –
    but if they’ve already been chosen to believe or not believe – even before all of us were created – then why go tell them?

    If my actions will not dictate the result, then why act?

  5. Les

    Dec 15th, 2009

    wow, such great questions. It’s awesome to hear someone searching.

    God doesn’t only elect to justify people. He also makes them born again, completely changing their nature. A Christian WANTS to preach the gospel because God is working in them to want to.

    “…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” -Philippians 2:12-13

    You see, nobody can just say “I’m one of the elect” and just sit back and enjoy the ride to heaven. We know we’re saved by our fruits. If God isn’t working in you and changing you, then it proves you aren’t saved.

    This is why good works aren’t meritorious. The good works are proof that your nature has been changed. On some level, you aren’t even the one doing them.

  6. alastair

    Jan 9th, 2010

    hey guys.

    I confess that I get mad and upset with God etc when hearing and believing this stuff (the article on the left)

    I have much hate and shortcoming. But if God would change me, then I would be free. I understand a believer still struggles, but I feel upset that….. though I WANT to be loved by God because I want what is good and to be saved and be with Him who is good, in my struggle or doubt, God, according to the article on the left, can just…….. not care at all for a person, to let it be possible for them to be saved. its all just like… God’s pick. of course I am nothing, and neither is anything in comparision to Him, but like…….. He just loves some and not others?! they all are equally unworthy, but He just picks some? so that He is glorified that he has mercy and saves some…. and he He is glorified in punishing what is due…… If this is all the case…. well, it just doesn’t feel like love to me. we just seem to be …. pawns. It sorta seems to me like honor and glory would hold value when it is surrendered and willfully given. instead of actions being self orchestrated and forced.

    it doesnt feel liek love if out of force a being would make other beings worship it. but what if those lesser beings recognized its holiness, and chose to worship it. I dont know. if humans have no…. choice or actions of their own, are we then just like… stuffed animals that someone can just circle around themself and say I am great? forgive me please in anything, I know I am not good. this is just all so… depressing and unloving seeming!

  7. alastair

    Jan 9th, 2010

    this is just a sketch of a thought. but for someone hearing this….. then, in terms of our actions we can take…. our salvation hinges on if we can truly be born again. Which, we can’t actually do. sooooooooo does someone just……. sit there? and hope God saves them? I can try many differnet things, but I know I cant make God do anything. its just all sad.

  8. Les

    Jan 9th, 2010

    Well here’s one thing you need to keep in mind. God does give us the choice. Every man does have that free-will choice to choose Christ that the Arminian talks about. But what they fail to realize is that nobody makes the right choice. We all choose oursleves, and choose to hate God.

    We have all chosen to hate God. We’re not robots. We’re real bad people. So God changes the hearts of the ones He’s chosen to demonstrate His overbearing mercy on.

    If we would turn to God on our own, and obey Him. No sacrifice would be needed. Just come back to God, be good, and problem solved. But the problem is so great, God had to become a man and be murdered.

    I know it’s a hard concept, and I hope God helps you to see it as beautiful instead of a snare.

    God bless.

  9. alastair

    Jan 10th, 2010

    thank you for your kind response. I am talking with my friend Rick tongiht about it.

  10. Les

    Jan 14th, 2010

    @alastair you might find this new article helpful. http://www.killerrobotninja.com/the-basics-does-man-have-a-free-will/

  11. Rob

    Feb 9th, 2010

    I was raised non-Calvinist and wasn’t even aware of Calvinist thought until a few years ago. The thing that disturbs me the most is that I always understood that God, being the omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-present creator, had taken responsibility for sin. Even though He didn’t force Adam and Eve to sin, He created a situation (a set-up in a sense), knowing what the outcome would be. That didn’t impact God’s love, justice, righteousness, etc because He then paid the price for the sin, opening the way to salvation. I’m not like Adam. I was not born without sin. I am a sinner, and by the time I understood that fact I had already demonstrated my sinfulness in a multitude of ways. So I was born into this situation. I didn’t choose it. And, if God sovereignly chooses not to make me one of the elect, then I am lost. It doesn’t help to say that we all deserve Hell. We were born deserving Hell. As long as salvation is available to everyone, it’s not an issue. But if you are born deserving Hell and there’s nothing that you can do about it, that is a reflection on who God is. It does not present Him as a loving and compassionate being. If we had some say so as to whether we ever sinned in the first place, cutting ourselves off from God’s love, that would also relieve God of the responsibility of people being in rebellion towards Him. Again, the problem is that you are born in this cursed condition. If you have no way out then the person who created you in that state is responsible for your destiny. But, if you have an out (through Jesus’ sacrifice) and you simply don’t avail yourself of it, then you are responsible. The only way God does not appear to be a cruel monster is if salvation is available to all who will come. If it is withheld from the “non-elect” then God is seen to be responsible for lost souls who want to know God’s love, but are driven away…like chaff. And I don’t think that the statement that only the elect will seek after God holds water. No one in their right mind would want to spend eternity in Hell, separated from any light, love, or goodness, and without any reason to exist, yet doomed to exist forever. I’m not saying that there aren’t some hard-hearted people that would choose Hell over God, but most people would jump at the opportunity to be saved. When people realize just how much danger they’re in, they reach out to God with great gratitude and praise, especially when they don’t have to consider, bitterly, that salvation is needed but not available, as in Calvinist teaching.

  12. Les

    Feb 9th, 2010

    Hey Rob,
    Thanks for the comment. These are valid concerns and I know where you’re coming from. I’ll do my best to shed light on, at least, where I’m coming from. I’m not trying to extinguish your concerns. But hear me out.

    One at a time.

    “It does not present Him as a loving and compassionate being.”

    We don’t deny God’s loving and compassionate character, we just define it differently than today’s “God can’t do anything but love” Church. I understand where you see our limitation on God’s love, and it’s valid. But I’d like to point out the huge limitation the “free willers”put on God’s love.

    When we say Jesus made it possible for everyone to be saved, but doesn’t effectually save anyone until they choose Him, we are limiting the actual power of the cross to the point of powerlessness in the face of man’s free will. Jesus can’t save a single person, unless they want to be saved.

    Reformed thinkers, on the other hand, say that Christ was ACTUALLY redeeming a people on the cross. Those people WILL be saved, because Jesus ACTUALLY atoned for their sins. Belief in this life is God’s actualization in us of the work that has already been accomplished in Christ.

    So there are the limitations you have to choose from:

    1.God tries to save all, but is powerless to save any.

    2.God perfectly saves those whom He chooses, and allows the earned wrath to abide on those He doesn’t choose to save.

  13. Les

    Feb 9th, 2010

    “Again, the problem is that you are born in this cursed condition. If you have no way out then the person who created you in that state is responsible for your destiny.”

    Again, valid argument. I would go into covenant headship and Adam being our representative… but let’s just go to Christ.

    “But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” -Romans 5:15

    Now think about this. How are we saved? By faith in Christ, we are UNITED with Him in His work. We dont’ actually accomplish righteousness, it is imputed to us because Christ becomes our representative. I hope this is something you agree with me on. The righeousness of Christ is NOT EARNED, it’s imputed.

    Now, I submit to you that the reason our righteousness can be imputed and not earned is because this is the same way our guilt is acquired.

    We are made guilty simply in our union with Adam… we are made righteous simply by our union with Christ.

    Are we ACTUALLY guilty? Yes. We live out the nature we have. Our actual sins compound and testify our guilt. The bad tree produces bad fruit. But you trees don’t make themselves bad trees, they’re the trees of their nature.

    Is a Christian ACTUALLY righteous? Yes. Again we’re good trees, so we produce good fruit. And we don’t choose to become good trees, God changes our natures.

    If we deny the ability for guilt to be imputed, then we must also reject the ability for righteousness to be imputed… at least if we want to be consistent.

  14. Rob

    Feb 12th, 2010

    Thanks for the follow-up Les. I’m still chewing on it. For now, here’s a little story. I honestly don’t know if it’s true or not. It has all the markings of a morality tale, but who knows. The story is that during WWII a German submarine or surface vessel was destroyed in combat with a British warship. When the British began conducting rescue operations, all of the German sailors were happy to be pulled from the cold Atlantic, even though being rescued meant that they would become POWs. However, there was one sailor who was a hard-core Nazi, and he refused to be saved. One British sailor, thinking that the German was injured and unable to come aboard on his own, climbed down to the water level and attempted to help his enemy, who pulled away and spit at him. He was left to his fate.

    That’s how I was taught that God dealt with us. We were all in extreme peril, and once we realized this, by regarding all of the threats, warnings, and examples in the Bible, we were happy to find that God was reaching down to save us. He didn’t make distinctions. Whosoever will. He continued to offer rescue, even to those who spit at Him, until their lives here were over and their destiny was sealed.

    I responded to God while I was His enemy. I didn’t hate Him, but I knew that my life was offensive to Him and yet He was offering to save me. I gratefully accepted the offer of salvation in order to escape my doom. Then He changed me, made me new, and is still working to conform me to the image of Christ. I am way far away from where I would like/need to be, and still struggle daily with sin. If I doubted that God had offered me salvation, that I wasn’t one of the elect, then every time I fell flat on my face or faced some great challenge or struggle, I would be left wondering if maybe I wasn’t one of the elect after all, and that I had only been deceiving myself. I KNOW what I did. I accepted Jesus as savior and lord. And, because I never wondered (or doubted) that God loved me and offered me salvation, I had confidence. When I began looking at Calvinism, I began to doubt.

    How do I know I one of the elect? I keep thinking of Matthew 7:22-23 and similar passages.

  15. Les

    Feb 12th, 2010

    “I responded to God while I was His enemy. I didn’t hate Him”… “Then He changed me”

    The Bible teaches that natural man hates God.

    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” -Romans 8:7-8

    You’re denying this truth if you say that you pleased God, by believing, while you were in the flesh.

    You see, God didn’t change you AFTER you didn’t hate Him, and understood who He was, He had to change you first. We are all the nazi that spits in God’s face. But the new birth is a miracle God performs in a God-hater, making them a God-lover.

    You’re trying to say that YOU changed you into a God-lover, then God changed you some more after you accepted… do you see the problem?

    What does scripture say? Does it say we make ourselves see the kingdom, accept it, then we’re born again? No, it says:”unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    We can’t see the gospel until our eyes are opened. We can’t hear it until our deafness is cured. We can’t respond until we’re made alive from deadness in sins and trespasses. God does those things, alone. It’s all by grace.

    DUDE! Just remembered, I wrote the perfect response to the Nazi story. Please read this, it might help you at least see where we’re coming from.

    http://www.killerrobotninja.com/the-king-and-the-pirates/

  16. Les

    Feb 15th, 2010

    “How do I know I one of the elect?”

    That’s simple enough.

    Everyone sins, saved and unsaved, so falling on your face shouldn’t make you doubt your salvation… it should remind us of the reason Christ had to come for us.

    The way you know you’re saved is: Do you love the God of the Bible? Do you want to serve Him? Do you desire to live a holy life?(note I didn’t say you’d accomplish your desire) Do you hate sin? Do you love your brothers and sisters in Christ?

    Again, you’ve already heard the answer, and sound theology doesn’t change. refer back to depravity.

    Natural man does not want God as revealed in Scripture. Regenerate man wants more than anything God as revealed in Scripture.

    Do you want God? There’s your answer.

  17. Rob

    Feb 25th, 2010

    All these days and I’m still not ready to comment. Heads still spinning after listening to John MacArthur, reading Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards….

    Still thinking about things in the same basic way. I may want God, but what do I do if God doesn’t want me? You can call me Esau.

  18. Les

    Feb 26th, 2010

    You’re missing the fact that no one wants God. So if you do want God, it’s because you’ve been born again.

    The idea that people are going to want to come to God and He’s going to turn them away is not Calvinistic. It’s a made up accusation.

    Everyone who calls on the name of Jesus for salvation will be saved… and the only people who will do that are the people God has changed by His sovereign grace.

  19. Timothy

    Mar 23rd, 2010

    You’re almost there Les. You got it all right up to where you say God will not choose some and let them eternaly suffer in in Hell. The greek word “aion” is trasnlated both in the temporal sense and the eternal sense in most translations today. Both cannot be correct. And if you study just a little greek you will see that it must be translated as an “age” or “agelong” to be truly consistant in scripture. This will put quite a twist on those few passages like “eternal torment” or eternal punishment”.
    So you are saying that God puts us into this world, without any say from us, we are born sinners in a sinfilled world, tempted by greatest temptor ever, Satan, for a very short perion of time, 60-80 years. And then, we have no say so at all to be saved or not. Then we go to Hell and are painfully tormented not just for the number of years we lived on this earth, not one year for every sin we commited, not even one million years for every sin we commited, but for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
    The jist is this. God does choose some, for now, in this age, for a purpose. The others will come to know and trust in Christ later. Re-read Romans 5 and 1 cor. 15. All means all. The Roman Catholic Church adopted this eternal torment doctrine from the pagan beliefs of the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians as a means to control the masses. Unfortunately, the Reformation, although it did free us from many dangerous doctrines, it didn’t free us from one of the biggest lies the enemy has ever told. Just do a little study on this people and let God lead you. Don’t let others mar and disfigure the character of God into a sadistic torturer. God DOES have the power to save ALL mankind and God WILL save ALL mankind, despite ourselves.

  20. Laura Merrill

    Apr 16th, 2010

    I still haven’t heard an answer to why would God create a person and not choose them to be saved? Isn’t it “So God so loved the WORLD?”

  21. Eliaser Nghipangelwa

    Apr 21st, 2010

    I believe God choose people himself not because is what I want but because is what the Bible says. There are so many verses in the Bible says that. As for me I don t know the scriptures say a man can choose God where did they get it is not maybe demonic?

  22. Eliaser Nghipangelwa

    Apr 21st, 2010

    to Laura Merrill The Bible didn’t say God has created some people for hell no, But we know God knows the destine of every one, that is why hi is God. Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

  23. Alastair

    Jun 5th, 2010

    we all need God, and his saving grace. we all are born sinners and need to accept Jesus death that covers all. not all will accept. but i just want to say, what a sad, grim talk this is about God choosing to not save some of the human beings that he made…. the arguments go round and round… its easy to get caught up and just feel helpless, rejected or unloved by God since apparently he doesnt care to make it possible for some to be saved according to calvinism. this debate has gone on for hundreds of years. one thing i do know, is that i can worry over it again and again, or I can spend time praying to God, ask for help, with CALVINISM out of my mind, not worrying about if I am elect, and just praying to God that I would better know Him, love Him, and be his adopted son. the whole calvinism debate makes my skin crawl.

  24. Cory D. Jones

    Jun 25th, 2010

    I’m not sure if any of the above posters will read this, but I’ll write it for future readers…

    Laura – Paul answered that question in Romans 9. Iliaser posted it, but let me attempt to explain. Let me give some background… Basically, he had just finished explaining that God had choosen Jacob and not Esau. In fact (and this argues directly against the “God loves everyone” doctrine of today’s church), “13As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’” Wow! That’s actually quite scary. God hated Esau? That’s what the Bible says, so that’s what I’m going to believe. You can make the call for you. The Greek is mesio, meaning hate or detest, used over 40 times as the same translation, so there’s little doubt about the meaning.

    Paul asks, as he knew his dissenters would, two basic questions, I’ll start with the first… “14What shall we say then, is there injustice on God’s part?”

    What Paul means, and goes on to explain is that it has NOTHING to do with the will of man, but it’s all about prmoting the good will and purposes of God himself. God sais to Moses, and Paul quotes, “15I will have mercy on whom I have mercy…” Paul says it this way, “18he has mercy on whomever he wills.” I don’t know about you, but I was always taught that it the teacher said soemthing twice, you better remember it. Twice in three verses, I think Paul may think that’s important.

    Basically, as Les has eneavored to prove using Biblical context, we’re all destined for hell, and the only thing that can save us is God’s mercy. (And I think this is ultimately important in today’s day and age of, “Everyone is going to heaven, unless we choose not to” doctrine. That’s clearly not what Paul thought. Otherwise the verse would have read, “I comdemn whom I will condemn.”)

    Therefore, God doesn’t condemn us to hell, we do a good enough job of that on our own. (Over and above the doctrine of original sin, if Paul said he’s the worst sinner, who knows where I rank… Whew, that’s a bad thought!) Anyway, I digress… So, in God’s ultimate wisdom, He created this ultimate plan, and He uses whoever He wants to, in whatever capacity he wants to (essentially, has mercy on whom He will have mercy) in order to promote His ends. As Les put it, quite brilliantly, “[God] plans the ends, and chooses the means.”

    Paul continued, knowing this brought up another question, “19You will say to me them, ‘Why does he still find fault, for who can resist his will?’” Paul answers this quite harshly, “20But who are you, o man, to answer back to God?” Wow, that kind of puts it in perspective, no? He continues, using the potter and clay analogy, “20Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?”

    And here’s the answer to your question: Paul states, “22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory”

    Basically, by saving some, God is demonstrating his power to those he has saved, making known the riches of his mercy. Let’s think about this… If there was no consequence, no punishment for sin, no hell, there would not be a need for salvation. (In fact, if there were no punishment, we can completely throw out the need for a redeeming Savior as well, but that’s a different blog.) The elect can say (not boast), that (insert description of hell here) is what I deserve, but by God’s grace and mercy, for some reason known only to God himself, not only am I not getting that, but I will be spending eternity in the presence of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. My God!! WOW…

    And one of the things I like best about Reformed theology, is after you realize that you (human, the “oh man” paul eluded to) are COMPLETELY removed from the salvation equation, the only thing, I repeat, the ONLY thing you have left to do is fall down at the foot of the throne and say thank you. And logically, the next step is getting out and “working out that salvation”, continuing in thankfulness, for the rest of your days. Kind of gives “eternally grateful” a whole new perspective… :)

  25. Cory D. Jones

    Jun 25th, 2010

    To answer some of the early comments… The need for evangelism or prayer. I asked that same question when I first started down the reformed road. It was explained quite simply to me. Election, predestination, atonement, whatever other Calvinist words you want to throw in there doesn’t preclude the great commission, the last commandment of Jesus our Lord (or any other commandments for that matter). The answer is simple: we’re commanded to. Being elect doesn’t change that. We are still commanded to go into all the nations and pray without ceasing, and that’s what we will do.

    It’s important to note, and perhaps Les would like to do a piece on this (I’ve got some stuff, if you’re interested) that there’s a common misconception from outside Calvinism that election saves people. If you’re elect, you’re saved. Unfortunately, they aren’t perfectly synonymous. Here’s the rundown…

    Each person of the Godhead has a role, an individual and very specific role.
    The Father selected and marked those for salvation before the beginning of the world. These were given to the Son as His people. At the appointed time, the Son came into the world and secured these people’s redemption. However, election and redemption do not complete the plan of salvation. Included in God’s plan for recovering lost sinners is the renewing work of the Holy Spirit, by which the benefits of Christ’s obedience and death are applied to the elect.

    The Holy Spirit never fails to bring to salvation those sinners whom He personally calls to Christ. He inevitably applies salvation to every sinner whom He intends to save, and it is His intention to save all the elect.

    For some exegesis, let’s look at John 6…

    Keep in mind these are the red letters, so they shouldn’t be dismissed as John’s opinion or comentary. Many Arminians look to this passage, citing verse 40 claiming that it states that it is God’s will that every man shall come to Him. That verse alone does communicate that, however, one must not take this verse out of context. One must not overlook the conditional phrase, “who looks to the son and believes in him.” Let’s focus on verse 37 where Jesus says, “All that the Father gives me will come to me,” and verse 44, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” Therefore, one can conclude that 1. the Father will draw; 2. unless the Father draws, no one will come; 3. if no one can come without being drawn, it’s God’s decision who to draw, choose, elect (it’s his free will that’s demonstrated, not ours); and 4. once drawn, it’s impossible not to come. (The paraphrase is mine, but these are Jesus’ own words.) Therefore, everyone whom God desires to be saved, and has elected for salvation, will be the ones mentioned in verse 40 who do “look” and “believe”.

    James White puts it this way, “Those who are given come: those who are not, do not. The divine order is clear: God’s giving of men to the Son precedes and determines their coming to Christ. First comes the action of God, and then the action of men. God acts, man responds, never the other way around.”


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